Finding Liberation: How Fly Fishing Transcended Conversion Therapy – Elena Joy’s Story
Elena Joy
Elena Joy: [00:00:00] so from the beginning it. was always like, okay, well, , if something’s really wrong, then it would be wrong for Chad as well, therefore, You’ll figure it out eventually,
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I’m your host Carlin, a Canadian queer identifying 30 something year old, providing a platform for the stories that need to be heard
Elena Joy, hello.
Elena Joy: Hello, hello. How are you?
Carling: My gosh, I’m like [00:01:00] so excited to talk to you! I’ve been so excited
since doing the, I still call it Queer Note Speakers, Key Note Queers, but in my mind it is the Queer Note
Elena Joy: I love
Carling: I was part of. And it was, yeah, like the most, I don’t know, such an interesting eye
opening experience and I’m so thankful that like we connected through it and yeah!
Elena Joy: Yeah.
Carling: really led me on a journey of realizing how parallel our stories are.
Elena Joy:
Yes. I’m excited
Carling: so I would love it if you could just introduce yourself, and then we’ll get into your story.
Elena Joy: Fabulous. Okay. My name is Elena Joy. My pronouns are she, her. I live in Arizona outside of Phoenix. I am the mom of four kids and one beautiful, perfect doggy. And let’s see, I, during the day I’m an HR consultant. I [00:02:00] work with corporations. To develop inclusive leadership in their organizations. And that’s super fun right now.
We’re recording at the end of pride month and I got to speak to all kinds of different companies and start them kind of down the path of what does actual inclusion look like, which is super fun. And I love it. And then my passion project is I’m the executive director of the Pride and Joy Foundation, which is an LGBTQ plus nonprofit dedicated to preventing suicide and homelessness in our community. So that’s what I do.
Carling: I love it. I don’t know why it’s not mandatory for… The pride and joy foundation to be in every business and school. , like, how do we make that
Elena Joy: Hi, right?
Carling: what’s the, cause it is, I love the approach that it takes of not, it’s not
just for queer people. It is for the parents of queer people.
It is for like companies expanding their, understanding of inclusivity and yeah, the world needs it. [00:03:00] Especially now.
Elena Joy: yeah, we really
do. Yeah.
Carling: Amazing. Well, so your story, you were featured on Ted, on the TEDx stage, which is so cool. And your talk is incredible. And it’s so relatable, I think, for a lot of people.
And I think even people that maybe didn’t come out later in life. I think it’s just, it really speaks to I think finding your happiness. And. What your definition of fitting in is and what that looks like. So would you be okay starting from, like, how did you grow up? Where did baby Elena come
Elena Joy: Oh my gosh. Yes! Let’s go there!
Carling: ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha
Elena Joy: Okay. So, I said I am from Arizona, I’m an Arizona native, there’s actually not a lot of us um, because… Well, not of my generation, our next generation, there’s a lot of natives, but a lot of us, our families moved here, which mine did. So my parents grew up back East in the Connecticut [00:04:00] area with their families.
Um, my mother’s family was. Very Catholic in a very rebellious, but also devout way, which is something that I feel like only Catholics can pull off.
Carling: ha ha ha.
Elena Joy: and then my dad was Episcopalian and he was of the Episcopalian Catholic. And so for the two of them to get together in the sixties.
early, yeah, late sixties. , that was a big deal. It was a big deal for the town. It was a big deal for the parents up until three days before the wedding. None of the parents were coming to the wedding. Like it was that whole thing. And so they got married and they both came from pretty dysfunctional families and they were pretty convinced that if they married like outside their culture to someone who’s totally different than their family, then maybe they would have a chance of being functional in life, right?
Like, I think, I really think they both went into it with that idea. And the problem is, is that life happens, and… You’re still connected with these [00:05:00] families that really hold you into these specific roles, so, a few years into their marriage, they decided we need to get away and see if we can figure this out on our own. So they ended up in Arizona, and I was born a few
years later, so there were two kids and then me. There’s actually a nine year gap. between my sister and I. So you can definitely see
Carling: Oh,
Elena Joy: yeah, there’s a huge transition that kind of happened there. I’m pretty sure I was a surprise. And you know, it ended up that even then they weren’t able to make it work And they were divorced in like eight or nine Things had always been chaotic and a divorce just kind of made it more chaotic. and by time I got to my teenage years, I was really like, well, I know this isn’t the kind of family I want.
This isn’t the kind of future I want. And I was using that big teenage brain to start asking those big questions of where am I from? Like, where was I before this? And why am I here? And what am I supposed to be doing with my life? Am I supposed to end up like my parents or [00:06:00] is there something else available to me?
And as I’m asking these questions, the people who were in my ecosystem with the, with the answers were people of faith, were religious people. And they said, Oh, we have all those answers. And in fact, this religion had such a focus on family and. The importance of parenting and the importance of putting your family first , it was all of these concepts that coming from a dysfunctional, chaotic family sounded amazing, yes, that is what I want, how do I get that, right?
Yeah!
And so the answer is real clear, , you get baptized, you do this, you do that, you check these boxes and you get all these rewards or blessings as they’re called. And so that in one of the blessings was you would be able to one, return to God in heaven and two, you’d be able to be there with your entire family for eternity if you used your time here on earth. To be the best [00:07:00] person possible. And so that made those checkbox, no pressure, no pressure. And that made those checkboxes even bigger. And as you were speaking about earlier about like fitting in and what does that look like? It really like hit me that in that time that I was really devoutly faithful.
I was changing what I needed to, to fit in And I was very conscious of that because that is the faith framework. You have things that are wrong with you. And so through faith, you will not have those things anymore. You’ll become a more perfected person, more like God. And so I was conscious that I was changing things about myself, but I.
I really thought that’s what I was supposed to do, that that’s what God wanted me to do, and that that’s what was going to lead to an adult life that would be functional and satisfying and fulfilling. . So, and now I’m realizing, of course, looking back at the 2020 vision, like what I feel now is a sense of belonging [00:08:00] versus fitting.
I know now to pursue belonging in my community, in my relationships, in my environments and belonging is. Where I fit in without having to change anything about myself and where actually quirky things about me are celebrated, like that is belonging. And now, of course, now I know the difference, but back then in my twenties and my thirties, it was all about, what do I need to change about myself to make God and the representatives of
God on earth love me And see value in me.
Carling: That’s amazing. And did you grow up going to church? Like your parents came from two different religions? Had they abandoned both? Or?
Elena Joy: You know, I have memories of going to a Catholic church. , I have memories of going to a unity church and I have memories of the leaders of those two churches not liking that I went to both of them. And so whenever I showed up, I was like 10 and I would hear all of this like, Oh, you [00:09:00] shouldn’t be going there kind of thing.
It was very confusing for a 10 year old, right? But it was, faith was definitely never. a hallmark of our family culture. It was once in a while, it was part of mom’s history. , my grandfather was a really big person in the masons in Connecticut, and so there was that aspect , which is really funny because being Mormon, so much of their temple ceremony is. so I, yeah, I remember being in my twenties and going to visit grandpa and walking into the Masonic Lodge and knowing like all the hand signals and all the handshakes and all the
secret codes and him like watching him go pale. Like, how do you know this?
Carling: That’s incredible.
Elena Joy: Yeah. But no, faith was definitely not, not pushed at all.
Carling: It’s so interesting that the idea of, you kind of did what your parents did in that you didn’t want to relate what they had. And so you’re going to do something [00:10:00] totally different, which kind of in irony is what their parents had done, like going towards religion and this idea that God wants you to have this very. nuclear family. I don’t like this. Yeah. This like perfect life. I’m just interested, like before the Mormon, before you joined the church, did you have, you just knew you didn’t want to be like them, but did you have this idea that like, Oh, I’m going to get married to a man and have Hmm.
Elena Joy: I started college at 17. and that was when I got a Mormon roommate and she brought me home to her family for Sunday dinners. And that’s where I started to actually really get immersed in the culture. And really dig into the faith as well. Because when you’re at college, you can also take a religion class. Most of the colleges have like a Mormon Institute on campus. And so, yeah, that time was very fundamental. I was in an area that was very devoutly [00:11:00] Mormon and I was surrounded by people that were, and so I became entrenched in the culture.
And even then the thought in my head about marriage was. My best friend slash roommate had sent a guy off on a mission. She knew she was going to marry him. So in my head, how the future was going to
play out, I was going to graduate. She was going to get married. and I would rent a room from them.
Carling: Oh!
Elena Joy: I’m not kidding.
Like that’s what I
Carling: Ha
And like, did they know that? Was that the plan?
Elena Joy: probably not. Yeah. I probably never shared that with them.
Carling: that’s incredible.
Elena Joy: Oh
my gosh. But then, you know, it was the like six months before I graduated and one of her best friends from high school, who was also her boyfriend’s best friend came home from his mission and she introduced us and he literally treated me better than any man I had ever. experienced, including my own [00:12:00] dad, and that was shocking and incredible, and
I had no reason to say no.
Carling: Mmm.
Elena Joy: good guy.
Carling: being, yeah. I mean, my guy wasn’t good. But I remember thinking I have no
reason to say
no because everybody around me is so happy that there must be something wrong with me if I’m the only one not happy. So I should just
like, go along with it and something will click eventually.
Elena Joy: Yep. And you’re young, so, you do these,
Carling: yeah, I, it should be illegal to get married before you’re 30. I don’t know. Like,
Elena Joy: No, I fully
Carling: if I think about who I was, yeah, you’re not the same person.
Elena Joy: I mean, literally our brains are not formed, fully formed until we’re 25. So the fact that we can enter into legal contracts that don’t have any exit clause. Like the military, or like marriage, or like buying a gun, right? Like all of these things require higher critical thinking skills, which humans under[00:13:00] 25 don’t possess.
So, I fully agree
with you. I don’t think we should be able to enter into legal contracts before that age.
Carling: Yeah. But here you are like walking down the
aisle. Did you do the whole temple
Elena Joy: Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. So whenever a new Mormon show comes out, like the last one was, I don’t know, some murder mystery thing, and they showed the temple ceremony, getting married and the whole thing, right? Well, not the whole thing, a condensed version of it. And I will get texts from friends and being like, Is this what you did?
Did you wear those clothes? Did you say those things? I’m like, oh buddy, it’s secret for a
reason cause it’s real embarrassing.
Carling: That’s true. People are always like, no, it’s very private. It’s very personal, but it’s from what I’ve heard. It just sounds really awkward and embarrassing.
Elena Joy: I don’t know how their membership is going to [00:14:00] stay high with this new generation. I mean, my kids are already looking at some of the youth activities and being like, Oh, that’s kind of cultish. You know what I mean? Like, I can’t imagine them going to the temple and being okay with what happens there. Yeah.
Carling: Yeah. I just picture them coming out the other side, like wide eyed and like, I did not, I don’t
Elena Joy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Carling: So you start ticking off boxes. You think, this is what I need to do, I’m going to heaven, and then at what point do you start feeling like, I’m not, I’m still not happy, or I’m not happy yet.
Elena Joy: Mm hmm. I think of it a lot like a spiral. Like, I mean from within the first Okay, let me be clear. We lived at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah in married student housing. Because, the housing. is all really regulated Because you have to maintain the honor code while you live there.
And so there’s all these rules. Like your landlords, if you’re single, the landlord’s [00:15:00] You’re not even in the same building as the opposite sex, let alone like the same floor or the same apartment, right? And opposite sex has to be out by 9 p. m. Like all of these things. They’re never allowed in your bedroom.
Blah, blah, blah. So if you’re married… You get the opportunity to live in married student housing and get your own little apartment with the other 20 year olds who are married and that’s where we lived right by campus in these cinder block Apartments where you could hear everything
Carling: Oh no.
Elena Joy: very clear to me That something was wrong.
So within the first year, I knew something was off. I went to, because this is what you’re instructed to do. I went to my bishop and was like, I think something’s wrong. So from the very beginning, it was always, well, how does Chad feel about it? Which by the way, that’s his real name. I’m not throwing shade. That is his real name. [00:16:00] And he’s a lovely person, contrary to what the name implies. Okay. So
Carling: funny because in my, on my Patreon I share my whole story, it’s a five part series, he goes to jail, this whole thing, and I renamed him
Elena Joy: Oh my gosh.
Carling: anonymity, so, I believe that your Chad is nice, so every time I hear Chad I’m like, oh yeah,
tell me about it.
Elena Joy: Uh huh. Yes. Oh my gosh. So, yeah, that’s what I was told for probably the first five years and then probably five years after that, right? The spiral is going and I, I get really incredibly frustrated for lack of a better word again and I go and I seek help again and I’m told your body is fine. Anatomically, your body is fine.
And so maybe you just need to figure it out. And at that point, I’m talking to doctors and doctors are saying, okay, well, you should really just masturbate. Like you need to do that and figure like, if you don’t know how to feel satisfied, how [00:17:00] is your husband going to know how to help you feel satisfied? makes total sense, but that would also send me to hell. So there was no way I could do that.
Carling: masturbation a, yeah, that’s a No
Elena Joy: No go. And so every Mormon therapist that I saw. I don’t know how they resolved that in their own brains , because they couldn’t say that. They couldn’t say, go and do that. They had to be like, oh, maybe there’s something in your history making it so you don’t enjoy that.
So that seed was planted before I was 30. That seed was planted. Oh, there must be something wrong with me. I need to find it and heal it, right? So then by the time I’m in my 30s. , yeah, that idea was already there, but I would say it was probably a five year cycle of. Feeling frustrated, trying to find help, trying to find resources, the not working out, giving up, not caring, going numb, then getting frustrated again.
. It just kept going and going. And then by the time my [00:18:00] youngest went off to school and I had six hours to think for myself,
that’s when things kind of started to implode mentally inside. Yeah.
Carling: Yeah. I can’t imagine how you don’t have time to think about anything but children and husband and. Church, like that now you’re also adding on a layer of that expectation within that community to participate and do all of that. So how do you start like filling that void like you’re like okay it must be, I need to start exploring
Elena Joy: Mm hmm. Well, the first step is very easy because traditionally when their young kid goes off to school, you know, that last kiddo, that’s when you go to the gym and you get your body back. So that was always the plan, , you know, she’s going to be in kindergarten three years from now. that’s when I’m going to get my body back. So the minute she went into school, I joined a gym and not just like one of those gyms, but like a, this is practically a religion [00:19:00] in and of itself. You’re coming here six days a week and these are your people and this is what you’re doing. And, and I loved it.
I loved it. It, I loved connecting with my body in that way. I loved doing. A max deadlift and just having like total clarity of thought and purpose and body. Everything was on the same plane and that felt so good and I loved it. And it was in such contrast to everything else I felt during the week. Where my body was basically just offline. Like it was never heard. It was never. respected, right? It was something that was just going to tempt me and keep me from heaven. So this six day a week tradition of focusing on my body for an hour was a huge game changer for me. , so many people, when I get to that point in the story, they’re like, so CrossFit made you gay, which is [00:20:00] a common trope, but not accurate in my, Yeah.
Carling: it not? Because I have two friends that are very fit and good looking and they’re always inviting me to their CrossFit gym because there’s a lot of firefighters and I’m like, I absolutely will never go there. I can’t handle, like I’m a lesbian, but like I, I can’t handle that level of fit woman. So I just go, I try to find CrossFits when I go that are more. Men, because I’m just like, ah this is fine. I don’t have to worry about
Elena Joy: Oh my gosh. What an amazing coping strategy. ha ha
Carling: Yeah.
Elena Joy: ha. Cause what would happen? Would you just attack ha.
Carling: I, no, I just become, I like, I don’t, I forget how to walk, how to talk, how to, I become awkward anyway, and then I add another layer. I’ll just like, say stupid thing. I it’s awful. It’s not, I’m not like a flirt. I’m not, it’s not a, an endearing thing. It’s just very uncomfortable for everybody.
Elena Joy: for
Carling: So,
Elena Joy: Oh my [00:21:00] gosh. Ha ha
Carling: Okay, so you’ve got your body back. It has arrived.
Elena Joy: has,
yeah.
Carling: you’re still not happy.
Elena Joy: No, it was
Carling: Or you’re happier.
Elena Joy: I, I loved getting all those, all that feedback and all those comments. Oh my gosh, your body looks so good. And how I internalized that. Yeah. Because it was never. Oh, someone’s appreciating my body. Like that was never a reality ever. It was very hard for me to understand how my husband could be attracted to me. Like, ew, like I did not get That right. And so it was never Oh, my body looks good. It was I’m in control of my body. And that makes me a better person. And I think that’s really ingrained in our society anyway. When we see a person that we deem as overweight, our gut reaction is, Oh, they’re not in control so that’s the feeling that I gloried in, like, that’s what it meant to me. It did give me like more confidence I wanted more and you can only work out like that so much of the week. And so I wanted, I wanted that [00:22:00] feeling more like that feeling of everything being.
In sync and on the same plane. so I started running cause of course my weightlifting coach was like, Oh, well that’s the next step. So running and I did experience that if I could push myself long enough and far enough, I could experience that again. And boy, I loved it. I loved it. but again, you can only do that for so often. And so I wanted it to be technical and not hard on my body because the other two things were and I was very aware of that and I needed my recovery days, but I needed something. I needed something. And so I found fly fishing and it was awesome. I had a running coach who was a fly fisher, who wanted photography lessons. ’cause most fly fishers are catch and release, so they don’t keep the fish. And the only thing you have after you’ve spent thousands of dollars on a beautiful trip are the photos. But it’s really hard to capture good photos on your phone when you’ve got running water and you’ve got this fish that’s squirming and you’ve got a fisherman who, a fisher person who’s like, So excited and the [00:23:00] adrenaline is pumping, right?
And they just, ah, that’s me when I fish, but most of us, and So it takes, it takes a little bit of talent and skill to capture those photos. And so the more I was trying to teach those skills, , I realized I need to practice this myself. I need to understand what a cast is. So I can understand how to , how to compose the shot, how to capture the shot in the best way.
And so I was teaching and I started, I needed lessons. And so I. Found a club in town. And as I was. for the next meeting to show up and go, I was going to the local fly shop and talking to people, old white men, and they would take one look at me and they’d be like, Oh, you need to, you need to go fishing with Kristen.
Have you met Kristen yet? She’s like the best female fly fisher in the state. And she’s young. Like you you should go find Kristen. She’ll be great for you. And I couldn’t find her, but I was hoping she’d be at this meeting.
And she was,
Carling: and like any good lesbian story, like there’s always a
Kristen [00:24:00] that would, there she
Elena Joy: there she was.
Carling: And so, do you recognize this connection with her right away as a same sex attraction?
Elena Joy: no, I wish. Boy, that would have saved some time. We, Yeah we really hit it off and I convinced myself this was just a new best friend. And I guess it’s because I had never felt those feelings. I have a distinct memory of, of texting her in those early days. . We really only texted for Like three weeks and it was this , I need to say this. in the way possible, you know what I mean? It was like, and I imagine maybe that’s what it’s like dating on the apps. I don’t know, but it was like, this. constant, want to connect with her. I need to connect with her. And then when we finally started seeing each other in person, I I had like this inner monologue going of like, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, like, it just felt so good when she looked at me. And then it was that point like. Oh, [00:25:00] this is not good Like once it got to that, And it didn’t take long, within a month, it got to that And that’s when it kind
of hit me over the
Carling: And was she out as a lesbian?
Elena Joy: no, no,
Carling: So now you’ve got this passion for fly fishing, but also this passion for your fly fishing
Elena Joy: Yes.
Carling: How do you manage that feeling with your, then you go home to your husband and your kids and your church and your
Elena Joy: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s a recipe for disaster. There’s no doubt. I am very grateful for that time, as hard as it was. And it was so hard. The contrast that it provided. I loved who I was. Fishing. I loved that person and coming home, it was just like, you know, there’s a phrase in Mormonism, endure to the end.
And that phrase like, sunk into my like I would come home and it was enduring and I hated that because of course I had my [00:26:00] kids who were the joy and love of my life. And so to come home and feel like I’m enduring was so gross, but also so eye opening. and it’s funny because now I’m realizing like at that point. so Skip ahead. I realized I was quote unquote broken and decided to um, try to get fixed. And so I enrolled myself in conversion therapy and, and I look back and I’m realizing like, Oh, that was almost like the death throes, almost like how people are describing the anti trans. Sentiment that’s out there right now and feeling like we’ve come so far.
Why is this here now? And some people are translating that as like, it’s their last ditch effort to try to be rid of this. And I feel like I could relate that to that time when I was feeling this enormous contrast. And then deciding to try to be fixed was like my last ditch effort of. Trying to stay in [00:27:00] heaven, trying to get back into heaven.
And, and I’m glad I went through that. I’m glad that I was able to feel like I did everything I could. I wish I had been protected from the consequences of conversion therapy. But I’m really glad to know that I really tried to make that marriage work. To the point of trying to change something fundamental about who I am.
Carling: And when you say the consequences, can you elaborate what were those consequences of going through conversion
Elena Joy: absolutely. So, 57% of people who participate in conversion therapy become suicidal and most attempt suicide. And 92% of LGBT, nope, LGB, trans people have their own statistic in this area. 92% of LGB. People who go through conversion therapy deal with lifetime suicidal ideation because your brain has been [00:28:00] rewired I mean, they really do use science to rewire your brain It’s now they’re on a fundamental level of I’m not supposed to be here.
God doesn’t love me. I don’t deserve my children, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like there’s a whole logic path that is set up and created. It rewires your brain and you will now struggle with that for a long time. And so. I would say, yeah, that is, that is the consequences. Now I will say I have people, whenever I speak about conversion therapy, I have queer people come up to me and say, you know, I went, I went to conversion therapy, It wasn’t that big a deal. It’s not like still haunting me today, which is awesome. Good for you. That’s awesome. But also I love that for you. Also, I’ve realized that. When someone goes to conversion therapy, not really caring if it works, like maybe their parents sent them and they’re just like doing it to appease mom or a spouse sent them, but they’re just doing it to like, okay, I’ll try.
If they’re not bought into it, it’s not going [00:29:00] to affect them the same way. When you have someone who’s like, I want this to be gone so that I can get into heaven or so that I can have my parents love, right? Like that is a different story. That’s where we’re dealing with suicidal issues.
Carling: That’s such a scary statistic because, it wasn’t this story of, oh, your parents, sent you away and it was this horrible thing. You actively sought it out because you were so desperate to fit in and fix yourself when there was actually nothing wrong with you.
It was every, it was your whole universe that was wrong, so your marriage ends up breaking down. You end up like this conversion therapy. It doesn’t work. Your husband obviously knows what’s going on What is the deciding moment of okay, this isn’t working My marriage is over because you tried for a really long time right in therapy. And yeah
Elena Joy: Yeah. I went to that clinic four days a week, two hours a day for six months at an [00:30:00] extremely high cost as well. And um, Yeah. I had a plan. , I was convinced I was more causing more damage by being there and, um, that day I landed in emergency services with real doctors and real medication for the first time in my life.
I was able to sleep. And every time I woke up, I was connecting these dots and what was happening at the time was the Brett Kavanaugh hearings and the Me Too movement. And we were hearing these statistics about how like three out of five American women have been assaulted at some time in their lives.
you know, that six months had been founded on the premise of. Kind of what we heard earlier, something happened earlier in your life that damaged you, made you feel like you can’t trust men. If we can find that and heal it, then you’ll feel safer on men again, and you won’t be attracted to women anymore because that was a false idea.
so that’s what I had spent six months doing. And then to [00:31:00] realize here, those statistics and realize. Three out of five American women are not queer, like not even close, right? Can you imagine? Hello. my gosh. I would know.
Carling: yeah.
Elena Joy: Yes.
Carling: Hahaha
Elena Joy: So yeah, at that point, that’s when, I mean, that wasn’t the end all be all, but that was definitely the Oh, I’ve been lied to.
And if I’ve been lied to about this, what else has been a lie? And so that started the questioning that started breaking down the blind faith.
Carling: Wow. I can’t even imagine. to come out is hard anyway. I think, especially for our age group, but then to also have that like religious, untangling has gotta be. So scary because literally everything that you thought for so long is wrong or not accurate like, do you feel like you were kind of led [00:32:00] astray in that?
Like you were led to this place through the socialization indoctrination of a promise
Elena Joy: Well, I definitely think that high demand religions, especially the ones that really focus on missionary work and converting people very much also leverage. Being desperate , whether it’s a third world country or a lonely 16 year old, they offer a lot more than they can deliver it does feel like, I don’t know, I don’t want to say victim, but taken advantage of. You know, not fully formed brains, the, the culture baptizes kids at age eight, saying that that’s the age of accountability. and then at that point, once, if you want to get your names off the record of the Mormon church. You either have to go through a series of interviews with them, which can be totally traumatizing if you’re at a certain point, or you have to hire a lawyer to get your name off the records of the church.
So, but they allow you to become a [00:33:00] member at age eight or at age 16. In my. And so, yeah, I definitely feel like it’s a preying industry on desperate people. And, and I do think that at that time, you know, that was the nineties. I got baptized in 90. Three And the more people talked to evangelicals were doing the same thing.
Like that was the purity craze. I mean, we were all wearing purity rings and singing Christian rock and doing really weird stuff so that it wasn’t just the Mormons, but it was definitely the time and it was definitely
the
Mormons for me.
Carling: Wow, so you are just living your best life now you are happily partnered with your fly fishing
Elena Joy: Yeah,
Carling: and your kids know, how has your view on parenting, how do you shape these kids and how do you approach these kids differently now than maybe you would have had [00:34:00] you stayed on this path?
Elena Joy: so much. I mean, and I’m still trying to change so much. I have two kiddos and then a gap of four years and then another two kiddos. And so my older ones, you know, they were 13 and 15 by the time I came out. Like they had already been heavily indoctrinated in a very specific way of thinking. So I still struggle to really connect with them.
And it’s not because of them. I feel myself going back into a lot of old modes, a lot of ways of thinking when I’m interacting with them. And I have to force myself to do really intentional things like say the unspoken thing, Elena. , use your words. Like that’s something I just never did.
And I, I’m still struggling to do that with my two older ones because they’re the only ones kind of still left I think if I had a lot of people from that time still in my life, maybe it would come up more often, but it’s very distinct with them. My two younger [00:35:00] ones, I would say I’m almost a completely different mom.
Then the way that I raised the first two I have a lot easier time saying all the things. I think a really great way to illustrate that is, you know, kid come home, comes home from school and moms. frantically mopping the kitchen floor, and kid says, Mom, is something wrong? And former me would have been like, No, everything’s fine.
Obviously a lie. Teaching my kid to not trust their own instincts. Teaching my kid to not ask me. And teaching my kid to not respond in an authentic way. And I would say that that definitely epitomizes who I was as a mom back then. And today, If the same scenario happened, first of all, I wouldn’t be frantically mopping.
I would probably be journaling and meditating, but also for that kid to say, mom is something wrong and to be able to say, yeah, I’m dealing with something really heavy and I’m going to [00:36:00] be okay. And I have resources around me to support me and I’m going to figure it out. And if it’s appropriate to share with you, I will, you know what I mean?
Like that is a. Different scenario. And I think that really epitomizes like the difference in parenting that I’m doing.
Carling: What a. gift that is. Even just that scenario. Even flashing back to my own childhood we didn’t talk about things. You swept it right under the rug and, how things got dealt with, I don’t know. I still don’t know. , it’s our generation is now tasked with being better without having the skills and having seen. It’s like we’re making it up and we’re, I don’t know, we’re doing a lot of the hard work, but I think that, our kids generation will just be hopefully so much better
Elena Joy: I think so. I think so. We’re all doing the best we can, but and I agree with you, we’re totally making it up and it’ll be awesome if someday that generation can really understand what that [00:37:00] was like to
completely make up a more functional way of living a day to day life.
Carling: And I think it’s a nice wrap up. The Pride and Joy Foundation plays such a huge role in our generation having not had access and, you know, I talk about representation until I’m blue in the face, but I’ll talk about it until, forever. Because. We didn’t have this representation of healthy relationships and boundaries and queer relationships and different sizes and looks of families and la la la.
I think the Pride and Joy Foundation, like I said at the beginning, is so incredible because you’re getting into homes of every family. It’s not just queer people coming out, it’s parents. Who maybe their kids have queer friends and maybe they want to better support them.
Elena Joy: Absolutely.
Carling: I don’t know. Did I, you’re probably more eloquently speaking to what you do, but
Elena Joy: Yeah. That’s absolutely it. You know, on Pride and Joy Foundation, we pursue our mission in [00:38:00] two ways, and one of them is, is to reach those parents who… want to learn, but they need to feel safe to learn as all of us do. and when we’re coming from a really specific background or perspective, it can be really hard to feel safe learning new uh, quote unquote woke concepts.
And so our goal is to provide that safe space to ask awkward questions. And to understand that we’re, we’re on the spectrum, Right. And on one end there is the we don’t tolerate queerness. And on the other hand, there’s advocacy and there’s all these steps in between. And so to be able to reach people where they are without judgment.
And I think that’s kind of the superpower I’ve been gifted with is I can’t judge you because I was you like, there’s nothing you can say to me about the queer community that I didn’t say 10 years ago. So let me, let me sit with you in that space. and I don’t see a lot of organizations doing that in a way that’s very, very accessible.
We [00:39:00] make all our parent programs online because we have so many parents who are in communities where they don’t have a pride center that they can go to in person. And, or they have spouses who are not affirming of their queer child. And so they need to be able to access information, you know, on their phone, sitting on the back porch with their headphones in, and they need community. They need to know they’re not the only parent that’s like, holy crap. I don’t know how to do these new pronouns and I keep screwing it up. And does that make me a bad mom? No, but you need a community to tell you that.
Carling: Yeah, it’s not just, you don’t go from being like queer hating to wearing a rainbow
Elena Joy: Yeah.
Carling: a pride parade. Like There is a, there, there is something in the middle and you can, I just think, , if my parents had access to that. I think, my parents did the best they could with what they knew.
And I came out and got put back in the closet and, you know, it’s cause they just did what they knew. [00:40:00] And so had they, yeah, had a resource like this, who
Elena Joy: who knows That’s right. Who knows? Yeah.
Carling: Ah, well, you’re such a gift to this world. I’m so thankful that you took time out of your day and like I said, you’re very busy just trying to change the world.
So thank you so much for giving a piece of it to
Elena Joy: Thank you. This is great. I appreciate it.
Carling: Awesome. All right. I will let you go. Enjoy your day
and we’ll talk really
Elena Joy: Okay.
Carling: All right. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I hope you found our conversation informative and entertaining. If you enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to follow me on social media. Share this podcast with your friends and leave a review@ratethispodcast.com slash I did not sign up for this.
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