Learning to trust after religious trauma – Catherine’s Story
Catherine: [00:00:00] It feels like anything that is more like nature based and has any sort of female empowerment or sexuality, That has to be controlled and eradicated.
Carling: welcome to the, I did Not Sign Up for this podcast, a weekly show dedicated to highlighting the incredible stories of everyday people. No topic is off limits. Join me as we explore the lives and experiences of guests through thought-provoking, unscripted conversations. And if you enjoy this show and would like to support this podcast, consider joining my Patreon.
You’ll gain instant access to over 70 exclusive bonus episodes, entries into giveaways, a discount on merch and more. Your support, allows me to continue bringing you these important stories. So head over to patreon.com/i did not sign up for this and become part of the community.
I’m your host Carlin, a Canadian queer identifying 30 something year old, providing a platform for the stories that need to be heard
good morning, Catherine.
Catherine: Morning.
Carling: How are you?
Catherine: Great. I’m so glad to be
Carling: [00:01:00] Oh my gosh, I’m so excited. , so I think let’s just dive right in. I would love it if you could introduce yourself, and then we’ll find out where your story starts.
Catherine: Sounds great. So I’m Katherine Queering. I am in Pensacola, Florida. I grew up here, then I moved to Chicago for college and stayed there 18 years. Loved it. Just moved back here a few years ago because my parents are here and we were changing jobs and starting a family. I am a mental health counselor and I am also now a, what I call self-trust coach in helping.
Specifically evangelical evangelicals, but also others learn how to trust themselves and place themselves at the helm of their lives and be able to trust themselves and their desires.
Carling: Wow, that’s amazing. And you’ve got a lot of experience in learning that yourself.
Catherine: Yes,
Carling: Yeah. So where does your story begin? I’m super fascinated by all things ex evangelical. , I grew up like watching [00:02:00] the Duggars and I even vaguely remember thinking like, oh, seems such such a great family. I guess where does your story begin? Were you born into it?
Catherine: I was yes, I grew up Southern Baptist in the Bible Belt in the South. it was interesting when I moved to Chicago, that version of Evangelicalism was different and was a little bit easier for me. I also have more choices I think, around it. But yeah, I think the whole even concept around the duggars thing is really interesting because there’s so much of this what I’ve been calling, I know what’s best for you versus, you know, what’s best for you, context to that, right?
Which is then the authoritarianism I think it tends to be the most, do what I say just because I say to do it right. And then the warmer version of that we call like maybe paternalism, I love you and I still know what’s best for you and I still need you to obey me, right? Because that is next to godliness show up this certain way in the world and that’s the most important versus.
More focused on [00:03:00] autonomy and acceptance and like freedom and health in people’s inner worlds as well as their outer worlds, ? That how they’re showing up inside is just as important as how they’re showing up outside,
Carling: yeah, it’s like destined to fail if you’re only focused on. Filling your bucket from like the outside and you’re not working on making sure that you’ve got that like autonomy inside.
And so did your parents grow up Southern Baptist? How far back does being in part of that religion or church go.
Catherine: My mom grew up Baptist in Miami. And then my dad’s dad was Southern Baptist and he primarily went to that church and his mom was Presbyterian and she played the piano at her church, which is interesting. And then I ended up marrying a Presbyterian pastor. We’re in the P C O S A church now.
And he actually is part of what’s gotten me out of people pleasing and really like fundamental conservative. Culture. Which was [00:04:00] really helpful even though he’s still in like very firmly in Christianity. And and I’m like on the fringes of that. Yeah, so there’s a lot of that kind of history in my family , my parents read all of the James Dobbs and stuff growing up, which, I mentioning the Dugger as I’ve looked into it a little bit, it seems like. His version was a lot lighter, but it was still this I know what’s best for you and obedience is next to godliness, but it was not focused on punishment and shame and it was not quite as extreme, I think. But there was still that kind of underlying feeling to it and just so much emphasis on. I just remember this being in the air everywhere, just percolating that honor your mother and father sort of thing and keep that going. Someone just sent me a TikTok that was just hilarious about, hilarious and heartbreaking of kids just happily singing about honor their father and mother and will be so happy and whatever.
And it’s that like perfect whitewash picture on the outside of [00:05:00] everybody’s. So happy and they’re doing the right thing and whatever. And the dark side to that isn’t seen as what you have to do inside to be able to exist within that structure. So like for me, I definitely felt like I was having to stuff down crush, get rid of certain certain parts of me at the very least, just sidestep myself is what I called it.
I knew I was not able to live out of my core. I was living out of mom and dad approve, what will they think of this? I was not a very image conscious person. But I’m very like earnest and I wanna make people happy and I wanna do the right thing and I wanna help people. Like all of that kind of stuff.
Enneagram two stuff. Anyone out there is an Enneagram fan. So the people pleasing, fell in that. That’s where a lot of that came from for me, right? Is please God, please your parents. And it doesn’t matter if other people don’t necessarily like it. That’s how that felt for me because you’re still being a witness for God, right?
And you’re still like putting everything through this lens of, my parents approve. [00:06:00] Will they like it? Will God approve? What would the church think? And so that was the lens for everything and it got to be so rigid for me that. I actually had a smile plastered on my face.
Like even until one of my most recent jobs in my like mid twenties, people call me Smiley because I could not help smiling when I would interact with anyone because it was this like friendly, people pleasing part of me that had been a habit for so long
Carling: Yeah.
Catherine: that it’s just amazing all the ways that kind of shows up in our lives.
Carling: I find it interesting, like with the Dugger they talk a lot about you know, learning to be soft spoken and smile and pleasant do you actually remember learning that, like somebody saying, here’s how you should be on the outside.
Catherine: It wasn’t like an Emily Postman or something right, of like etiquette about that, but it was more, there was so much teaching about this is what it means to be a woman of God, right? So you have like every year, at least on Mother’s Day, there’s the Proverb [00:07:00] 31 woman of this is what it means to be a godly woman.
And then I remember this book, it was called like Woman of Excellence, I think that I did. As a, Bible study workbook when I was a pre-teen, maybe just over the line of teenager. And it was all of that stuff, right? And it’s like, how do you do this? God wants this from you. This is how you be a Godly per person is to be quiet and soft spoken.
Always supportive and always all of these things that are very tame people pleasing, , all the patriarchal values for women, Non-sexual except for in your marriage,
Carling: Like up into your wedding day and then you’re expected to like be
Catherine: Yes. To be pure, there’s a lot of, so much emphasis on purity, right?
And not just sexual but just how you like, carry yourself in everything, right? Pure thoughts, pure speech, pure, clothing, all of the things. That was definitely just like I. In all of the culture, you know how we iib all the messages from media. It’s just in all the language everywhere and in all the teachings, [00:08:00] more than like a, this is exactly what you do.
Carling: Right. Yeah, I find that so interesting because like as a teenager, I live with a 12 year old and it’s like you can just see like they’re going through so much self-discovery and
it Seems so counterintuitive to squash it all down cuz teenagers like know everything and have an opinion about everything and so like I can imagine that would be such a tumultuous time in your life.
Because you do have this very natural curiosities or questions or thoughts, but then like an entire culture telling you absolutely not, this is sinful, this is bad. You need to do it this way.
Catherine: Yeah, I mean I talk in parts language a lot because I am a big fan of internal family systems and that’s helped me understand myself a lot and help others in their healing journey. So in that sense, I’m gonna say I don’t know that I even had any teenage parts of me. I just completely blocked that out.
And I lived from really rigid people pleasing[00:09:00] parentified child parts of me for a really long time because anything that was, I. Personal thought or interest that wasn’t like sifted through what my parents thought or what the church thought didn’t feel safe I know other people that even if they had a little more autonomy there or did, either they withdrew or they felt shame and then they’d bounced back and they’d be doing the like, I feel convicted and then I come back and then I do it again and I feel convicted and I come back and, that there was so much language around.
Rebelliousness for any sort of self expression that wasn’t, within the box of what was acceptable. Any sort of really leaning into your desires or having space for them, whether they be sexual or otherwise I don’t remember listening to secular music and that’s been something I’ve been like reclaiming because, I mean, I’d hear it on the radio, but I.
I only had CDs of Christian music. That was not acceptable. I would’ve had to like totally explain myself to my parents and justify, like I, I don’t know how I would’ve even done that, [00:10:00] honestly. it’s interesting now Christian music is a real trigger for me, and I’ve reduced the amount that it triggers me, but, secular music is the only place where in music where I feel like my whole self can exist.
Because in the Christian music it was like, you have to be this certain way. So only those parts of me can exist and be safe. So I mean it, yeah, it just permeates so many things.
Carling: That’s, yeah, that’s really interesting. How do you, can you explain what that trigger feels like?
Catherine: Yeah, that’s actually what got me into really doing a deep dive into religious trauma and exploring that. It’s not just the music, but also the Christianese that they use in talking in between and the kind of subtle messages there. Some of the things in the music that I’ve pinpointed were this sense that you were always having to be this desperate person begging God to fill you up, begging God to take care of you, and thanking God for [00:11:00] God’s mercy All of that, that it was just this desperate cry for God over and over and glorifying God then, but there was no space for me to be a whole healthy person there. Like it was like you have to be back in that to be in this music. And so that’s part of what that triggered for me. So there’s a lot of desperateness inside that would come up.
Yeah.
Carling: I’m thinking about like the people who sort of go on these soapbox about, how like the devil lives in secular music It’s so funny because like it’s actually, it’s not the opposite, but like yeah, like Christian music or religious music is so controlling and, limited and all this, but yeah, I guess maybe it is that fear that they’re trying to control full expression.
Catherine: one of the ways I’ve been framing it is like covert narcissism and religious culture. And so I think that the idea of projection is really true, right? Of I’m the one controlling you, but I’m projecting that this other [00:12:00] entity is gonna be like possessing you and controlling you if you listen to
Carling: And so how did it go from. I guess like where did you start to shift in your mind from being like Southern Baptist in your little box, doing all the things to where you are today and having to really unpack that.
Catherine: Yeah. The first step for me was just moving away to college and I actually went to a Christian college. But it felt so much broader to me than what I came from, which is interesting. That’s kind of what I’ve heard with like the Dugger that left first. And it is in this like big evangelical church and that has felt a lot safer and warmer and loving to her.
And I think that’s like where I was at that point. I didn’t necessarily even feel like I escaped necessarily. It just I have like space for myself now, like I have a little bit more space for myself. And there were lots of different denominations and different ways of knowing God.
And so it felt like, okay, I’m outside of that little
box. But there was still a lot of anxiety and people pleasing and like what [00:13:00] I have termed codependency with God. Because that’s the like expectation and the pressure there. so it took some time to unpack that. But yeah, I think I just started at that point just moving to like kinder conceptions of God that had less pressure that felt better, more, more focused on love and support.
And so there was a lot of that for many years Then getting into types of, I went to more Anglican or Episcopal churches and I really liked the space of the liturgy and the rhythms and the space to connect to myself and to connect to God. So I felt like there was both. then after that meeting, my husband was when I got broke out of. Conservative evangelicalism there’s just, it’s just crazy to me. There’s so much suspicion. Like I remember on our first date, he was like, you were so quiet. It was because he was in a, more progressive denomination. I was like, I don’t know if that’s okay. Is that okay? I’m just like, in my mind, [00:14:00] going through all those things of, is that okay?
I don’t know. Is that okay? And I didn’t have any sense of. myself about that. It was still this other authority that I had to check in on it. Is that okay with the Bible and are they reading the Bible properly? And all of that. And then I started going to his church and I was like, they love Jesus. No problem. Like why is there a problem? Why has everybody been telling me this is like a big deal, right? They’re like, the world is gonna end. And so that kind of broke me out of that. And the. Needing the word of God is my authority, right? So then it was like, okay, oh my gosh. That’s a relief. then within the past I’d say I moved to a more like avoidant relationship with God and then a secure connection to myself Then I’ve had space once. I’ve gone through really in depth in therapy and gone through all the religious trauma and the religious messages and been like, okay, I’m gonna resolve them.
I’m gonna take care of how it impacted me and heal. And then once I was kind of at ground zero and had space to even want to connect with the divine again, it’s [00:15:00] been more mother earth and like goddess language and really Reconnecting with both myself and the rhythms of the earth. And that’s what’s felt more natural and how more space for me, and I’m not solely triggered by like I’m still Christian adjacent, right?
The like language of God and like the whole conceptions of Western Christianity. But it doesn’t really hold a lot of weight for me. That’s not. Where I’m feeling filled up. And I don’t really wanna study or even read the Bible that feels so patriarchal and like militaristic.
Carling: So when you went to school before university, like your primary years, were you in like a Christian school
Catherine: No, thankfully I went to public schools and I think that was really helpful.
Carling: yeah. And was there ever like conversation about, like, were you encouraged to have friends outside of Southern baptism?
Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely was, but one of the most crushing [00:16:00] messages in retrospect has been the in the world, but not of it.
So I had a lot of friends. But there was still always this, I need to be sure of their salvation or like it’s my responsibility to tell them and make sure that I’m not impacted by any like negative values they have or anything like that.
So there was a lot of like still messaging around
that.
Carling: And then was there concern or like I think that parents would be nervous to send their kids away to college because now they’re not the total authority, like they can’t be even if they want to. was that a concern for your family
Catherine: It wasn’t for mine. No, but also I went to a Christian college um, I just remember hearing more, I think at church at that point there was so much about like apologetics and being able to defend your faith and all of that stuff. That was like preparing you for secular schools, to be able to defend yourself and your faith. And I don’t think, my [00:17:00] parents weren’t worried about me having any other type of Christianity. I don’t think
Carling: I think like you’re so lucky in that you know, this whole like obey thy parents and God, for those who had good solid parents, that’s. That’s okay, but there are so many that aren’t, and know, then they still have that other experience.
Catherine: Yeah. I think that was a real resiliency factor for me that like my parents overall were pretty understanding and flexible and I felt like I could be myself in any, like other, like hobbies or like interest all of that stuff. I felt like I had a lot of space and I was really encouraged.
It was all of the more moral spiritual stuff that felt more confining.
Carling: And so college is pretty transformational. You sort of experience, different churches and areas of Christianity. And then how did you meet your husband?
Catherine: We met in Chicago land the year I turned 30. So like I was up there all my twenties just. By myself. [00:18:00] He had just taken his first church assignment in a suburb of Chicago. And we met online, an online dating site and met up and yeah, for us, for rest is history, I guess you say, but.
Carling: was it like was it weird to, I don’t know if weird’s the right word, but he is a, did you say pastor? I always forget the like But not of a Southern Baptist church. So was that like a consideration or a challenge or?
Catherine: Well, At that point I was still so solidly Christian, I was like diehard, the Lord is my life. Everything. It just felt more expansive and it felt different to me. So him being a pastor was kind of like, okay, that’s fine. I was more concerned about being put back in the pressure that I felt to be a witness for God and be like a model Christian.
That was more my concern about that. And he hasn’t ever. Put that pressure on me. He’s very clear that this is my job. This is not your job. And nobody in either of the churches we’ve been in have put that [00:19:00] pressure on me. And so like I’m just I have a lot of autonomy there, I think, which has been really nice.
Carling: That’s amazing. Was he part of that deconstruction of faith?
Catherine: Not really more that he’s just been. supportive of me doing what I felt like I needed to do. He was more worried about, we were both worried about how my parents would respond when I’ve started being a little more vocal about this so that I can be visible and help other people with this.
That was the biggest concern. And overall it’s been okay.
Carling: And so what does, like, how do you make a conscious decision to like, now I’m going to deconstruct, or what triggered that more formal process,
Catherine: Yeah,
I’m gonna back up and say I think everybody has a different maybe Layers of what comes first. And I think that’s probably based more on personality. So again, I’m gonna go back to the Enneagram. There’s, in the Enneagram there’s three triads. There’s feeling, thinking, and doing, or like body intuition.
And I’m in the feeling triad. that’s what I did first. [00:20:00] And so like I was doing all the emotional work. through being in a psychology field and learning about myself and learning about internal messages and codependency and family systems and things like that, that I was doing a lot of internal emotional work and healing.
for me, that came first. And then it’s been just more recently, like more body. Work I guess yoga was really helpful like for a long time. But like releasing the stress in my body and being more embodied and then examining the doctrines that’s really been within the last year. the thing that kind of put me over the, tipping point with that honestly wasn’t even when I started really doing a deep dive into religious trauma and I was just reading all the books I could find and doing a lot of.
Deep searching into my own experience and story. And then I took a anti-oppressive therapist training with Dina Omar. That was incredible. [00:21:00] And that’s really what put me over the tipping point for, even though it had nothing to do with religion or spirituality This idea of the colonization and the dominion mentality that has been so ingrained in all of the forms of Christianity that I can, most of them, that I can find, right?
There’s just like outliers that are not. And that’s when I was like, oh, like I’m getting rid of this whole like conception of. Like God, the king, God the Father, hierarchy, like all of that stuff. I was like, that’s gotta go. That is not and really embracing more of first people’s wisdom this idea of more being like in kinship with the earth.
I love, I’ve been listening to so many people talk about that and that disconnection from the earth being part of what’s. Created so much of our soul hunger and our, all of the devastation, right? With climate change and all of this stuff that we’re experiencing that’s really part of our hope.
And so that’s been really my kind of [00:22:00] place of spiritual renewal and expansion. And so yeah, that was really the biggest tipping point and then I was like, okay, what’s left? I don’t believe in atonement. I don’t believe in I. Eden, I don’t believe in, you know, like been other things that gimme some conception of oh, this is how you could talk about it in Christian terms and have a theology around it. Richard War has this idea of the universal Christ that’s both universal and personal divinity
Carling: okay.
Catherine: that I think is interesting and can help you bring those things together. The idea of original blessing instead of original sin. I think is really helpful. And there’s the idea of the Garden of Eden being a womb, that God is just like sending us forth instead of it being a punishment and a shame.
So there’s some things like that I think are helpful. But for me it’s just not really my focus.
Carling: I think I would say I’m like agnostic at best. I didn’t grow up religious. I think there’s something, but I don’t know what you know, but when it is linked back to [00:23:00] more like indigenous Mother Earth and I just can’t help but think that if there is a god, like a creator, Wouldn’t he want us to be so deeply connected to the place that he created for us to live?
Like I, to me it just makes
Catherine: Right,
Carling: that it just seems like so much of Christianity, older Christianity, Catholicism, all this stuff is like going against nature literally
Catherine: yeah.
Carling: Yeah, I always get this image of like a group of old men and they’re just like, who said this tree can grow here. And they like cut it down just to spite it. And then they like, ah, these women you know, like just like had this idea and now it’s been like thousands of years or however many years
that It’s just like they just got it so wrong.
And here we are today talking about deconstructing.
Catherine: Even the idea of creator is a, he is a
masculine, that doesn’t make any sense when you think about how people and nature work, I mean, It’s [00:24:00] women that bring forth life. Like how and why did that get to planted
Carling: maybe God’s a seahorse aren’t seahorses, isn’t it? The males that like,
Catherine: Maybe.
Carling: I feel like I need a T-shirt that says like God’s a seahorse because
Catherine: I
Carling: maybe he’s just a seahorse asexual.
Catherine: I know.
Carling: Creating things, I don’t know. But yeah, it, that is interesting. Do you have a lot of conversations With your husband, I can imagine that it’s challenging because you’re sort of like challenging this, these like ideas and theories and ways and he sounds supportive and more. Like of a liberal sect of Christianity, but like how does that play out? Do you find him a good source to bounce ideas off of or does it challenge his own identity as a pastor of a Christian Church?
Catherine: Yeah, it, we just don’t really talk about it much. I Tend to process that in other [00:25:00] places but that’s not unusual. That’s just not part of how a relationship’s ever been. So
it’s just, I would love for him to hear more and understand more when he has the capacity for that. But I think part of that is just his job is so, Consuming and that he’s more focused on how can I take care of the people under me in a compassionate way.
And his focus and his phrase is like I have to be the pastor to all sides and all perspectives here, right? And how can we support each other, which I think is also a really helpful goal. It’s just different, right? I see myself as more like a mystic and prophet, I think. And he’s the like shepherd, right?
So he’s like taking care of this group of people that have different perspectives and different ways of being and saying can we all be together and love each other? Which is. Pretty radical in our day and age, I would say. And really also helpful. And so we just come at it from different perspectives and I think I [00:26:00] just, I’m sharing to the audience that I’m sharing to.
Like I actually got a chance to speak in a Sunday school class at church recently. And they had a really good response, which was great. I talked about like Hilde guard of Bing, She was a mystic back in ten ninety eight. I think she was born like long time ago. I’m a part of a nonprofit that’s based off of her name or her legacy that’s for anti-oppressive spirituality and creating spiritual leaders that are like of all sorts of different faiths supporting each other and creating space for people that don’t fit in traditional Christianity to have.
Spiritual space to grow basically. So anyway, that’s how I know about her. I talked about Cole, Arthur Riley, who I love, and Caitlyn Curtis, and people who are expanding and talking about how do we embrace people who have been marginalized and hurt by the church, have space for what they need.
And for Christianity to look like that. Or at least honor where they’re at. So [00:27:00] that’s where I go.
Carling: That’s amazing. I would argue every religion, it seems like there’s. Like If they wanna stay relevant and successful, like in whatever that looks like, there has to be a middle ground of meeting those marginalized groups. You know, Like I, I’m fascinated by the Mormon group and it’s what seems to be this like mass exodus and I think ex
Catherine: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Carling: there’s like this mass exodus where people kind of opened their eyes and maybe have this sense of permission to.
Go out and explore other things. And these churches they have to adapt or find a way to reconcile the groups of people that have maybe been hurt by them.
Catherine: Yeah.
I would love to see a like public truth and reconciliation someday. I don’t know if that’ll ever happen in our country, but that would be lovely. from churches, from denominations, from the country, like whatever. I think we’re desperately in need of that
Carling: Is where you are in Florida? Uh, Really conservative. Like I know Florida as a whole is very [00:28:00] conservative.
Catherine: Oh yeah. We’re the,
Carling: It’s like, how do I say
Catherine: yeah, we’re the heart of that.
Carling: I always thought was Florida for a long time. I felt like it was like a swing state. This is coming from a Canadian, I
Catherine: Oh yeah.
it is. So I would say central and southern Florida in general is more progressive and it’s more the area meant like Northwest Gulf Coast that’s been more conservative. We’re like right under Alabama. And it’s like more country kind of feeling.
Carling: And how have your parents been with the journey that you’re on? Do you talk to them about it? Do they know where you’ve been shifting to?
Catherine: That’s, I mean, it’s in progress. I’ve had a couple really good conversations with my mom because she’s approached me with some curiosity and a place that I didn’t feel like there was judgment. Recently I was invited to a conversation that felt a little bit more like I needed to explain myself to them, and that doesn’t feel okay to my parts internally.
So they’re just [00:29:00] kind of in the middle of that at the moment. I don’t know what will come of that, but I’ve been thankful that there hasn’t been any tension in our relationship or anything that like I anticipated there could be. , yeah, I mean, I think I have a lot of compassion and understanding for where they are. And I, hope they can keep giving that to me
Carling: did we cover everything? Did we miss anything?
Catherine: if you want, I can speak a little bit more to learning assertiveness and like having a voice and that kind of stuff. That part of people pleasing that we talked more about the religious thing, if that’s helpful.
Carling: Yeah, I think that’s really helpful.
Catherine: So in my own. Journey on that. I think one of the things that was the most helpful was realizing that I am only responsible for my own feelings and emotions, and everyone else is responsible for their feelings and their emotions. And I can be considerate and I be can be connected, but I’m not responsible.
And so I. I am not responsible for someone’s else’s reaction to me. Like I lived so [00:30:00] much of my life in fear of hurting people, so if I was just a little bit too much of anything they didn’t like, right? And they had a poor reaction, I was like, oh, I need to change something, right?
That was something bad that I did or I caused and feeling responsible and like then I had to fix it. And so that was part of the little box that I was in too, of. Always being so careful to only encourage and only do I didn’t know how to wrestle with my sister. I didn’t know how to play, like play pranks.
I was like, oh no. We’d have these things in youth group where people would be playing pranks on each other and they’re a retreat, and it just, it’s so painful looking back now and being like, oh my gosh, I was so rigid that I was so afraid I’d hurt somebody’s feelings. I was like, we just need to bake them brownies.
And then of course they think they’re suspicious. What’d you put in them?
Right.
Carling: Yeah.
Catherine: Of course. It’s gotta be afraid. And just that I missed out on those kind of things because I was so afraid of hurting other people and not being, knowing how to handle that. And so for me it was like, okay, can I [00:31:00] release myself of that responsibility and have some space for myself to exist and allow other people to have the autonomy?
To be able to handle their own emotions without me jumping into rescue, without me feeling responsible. And that is part of their own growth that they need. And so that’s enabled me to have more space and be present. And then also realizing like what are the hooks that keep us from being able to speak up and be assertive?
And so there’s so many of. Those, some of fear of hurting people, fear of being rejected or abandoned, right? All of the fear that I’m a bad person if they react badly. All of those things. And so being able to say what, whatever I do or say is okay, I can work through conflict and I can apologize.
I. And actually that’s okay. I don’t have to work so hard to prevent that and never do anything wrong. And then that actually keeps [00:32:00] relationships from being deep enough that they actually are meaningful, ? because of that constriction around that. So like, oh my gosh, can I have a little more space for that?
Can I speak up for myself and then be okay with whatever? Discomfort there might be if there’s space, if there’s tension, if that person doesn’t agree and I don’t have to fix it or make it better for them. And so identifying what are the ways that I jump in to do that and can I pick a different choice?
I am also working on a program or a course around how this shows up in religious trauma. But also I’ve done it in like a myriad of different things like codependency of what are the triggers, are the things that hook me in, and then what is my reactive card that I’m playing, right?
I jump in to fix it or I go into shame or I withdraw whatever those things are right, that are my reaction. And what if I can play a different card? I call it the cycle breaking deck. What if I can be like, I can hold that tension and say, that’s okay, and I’m gonna wait until they talk to me about it.
Or I can say I’m sorry [00:33:00] that didn’t hit you right. Or, these are the things that I’m choosing to do that can help me try a different way, right? And have more space and have more assertiveness and space for myself. I’m also gonna mention real quick, I’ve been reading Gabor Mate’s book. The Body Says No, it’s all about our the physical ailments that we had, not just the mental health issues that we have or the emotional issues we have when we’re stuck in people pleasing. So he’s going through all these different types of physical issues that he’s seen people have that have the same kind of constellation, right?
And so that’s how it shows up in our body in so many ways, which I think is really fascinating, that our bodies are screaming. No, I need you to stand up for me. I need you to set these boundaries. That actually is so important. And so being able to have space to be like that is as important, if not more important to me than not hurting this person’s feelings or being so worried about how I’m showing up in the world, and then creating [00:34:00] and finding relationships where that’s safer to do.
Carling: Yeah, I think like I’m almost 40 and I look back at how I’ve made concessions. To stay in friendships. That in hindsight actually didn’t serve me. And I just thought, well, it must be me. But just this idea of I was ignoring my own, you know, internal sort of of like struggle with, morals, ethics, just personalities.
would, I would just assume it’s me and that I had to make concessions and change, but I’m just learning now sort of to like hold space and stand up for myself the way that I held space and stood up for everybody else.
Catherine: right. Yep.
I mean there’s such great things too about that. Like I have a toddler book that I’ve been bringing to my kids. I have a two year old and five year old, and it’s The baby’s book of No or something. The first book of protest or something. I think it’s the first book of protest and it’s about all these important people in history that said no and what they were standing up for and the impact they had. I was like, yes. They were [00:35:00] not like penalizing kids for saying no. We’re saying this is so important.
Carling: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s amazing. And so you’ve got some programs and you’re writing a
Catherine: yes. Mm-hmm.
Carling: Can you talk a little bit about some of the projects that you’re working on?
Catherine: Absolutely. So my kind of core thing is my framework around trusting yourself again I have a course around that we go through reflecting on the messages that taught you, you couldn’t trust yourself specifically in evangelical Christianity. How to release those, reconnect to yourself, reclaim the parts of you that you weren’t allowed to have before, and reclaiming the parts of you that. Helped you exist in that system so that they don’t have to keep doing that job anymore, right? They can come live in this like new place that you’re in, and then reemerging feeling more whole, grounded and connected to yourself. Then I also have one that’s covert narcissism and religious culture that goes through understanding the power and control tactics [00:36:00] like manipulation tactics that we experienced and the way . The conception of God often was being given to us as a narcissist. And that there was this ideological pressure and authority, even if there wasn’t like a narcissistic leader at the home. Because I think a lot of times, like the church I grew up in, I felt so much good intent from people like everything they were doing was out of concern for me and like they wanted my best.
And it’s what felt bad was the way that. That was given to me, right? And the messages around that. And so that’s just kind of unpacking that a little bit to understand those subtle things of the intent and the impact can be different. And this is why the impact felt so bad, even when the intent was possibly good.
And then I have a new one that’s just like a mini course about ifs. So understanding internal family systems and how that can help you. Be able to befriend yourself internally. It’s a really helpful way to. To heal and reconnect with yourself. And then I am just about to publish one that’s my [00:37:00] poetry.
So you can read it and listen to me talk about it. And it goes through both this like healing from people pleasing and coming home to yourself. And then there’s one that’s more about spiritual expansion and what are ways that we’re con connecting with a divine mystery and that can feel really expansive and other kind of options there.
Carling: Wow, that’s amazing. And it sounds like a few of those would be really good for people, even if they aren’t having to deconstruct from maybe like a more conservative religion
Catherine: Yeah. And I’m working on adding, just I’d like to create a Trust Yourself program that’s just for more like people pleasing or other things as well. So that’s in the works. And then I have, One-on-one coaching and group coaching and like a community too.
Carling: Amazing. Have you found a lot of people that are on a similar journey to you, like in different spots?
Catherine: Yeah, it’s kind of amazed me how many people like even in just trying to network with other healers and people who are putting the message out there, it’s been. Amazing. Like I just can’t even read all the books [00:38:00] or like connect with all the people. So that’s been encouraging actually. There’s so many people doing this work and helping hold that space for others.
Carling: And where are you online? Where’s the best place for people to find you and the work that you do?
Catherine: CQ counseling.com is my website, and so that’ll have all my contact information. I am on Instagram some and that’s at Catherine Queering, so that’s probably the other best place to find me.
Carling: Amazing. Well, Catherine, thank you so much. This has been such a good conversation.
Catherine: Oh good. Thank you so much. I feel really honored being here.
Carling: Oh, thank you. I will make sure to link everything in the show notes and I will tag you on Instagram when the episode comes out.
Catherine: Great.
Carling: Awesome. All right. I will let you get on with your day and we will have to talk again really soon.
Catherine: All right. Sounds great. Thank you.
Carling: Okay. Bye.
Catherine: Bye.
Carling: Thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I hope you found our conversation informative and entertaining. If you enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to follow me on social media. Share this podcast with your [00:39:00] friends and leave a review@ratethispodcast.com slash I did not sign up for this.
Your support means the world to me. If you want more interviews, exclusive content and add free episodes, join the patreon@patreon.com slash I did not sign up.
I hope you all have a fantastic week ahead and we’ll talk soon
I Did Not Sign Up For This- Podcast 