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Ep 161

Borderline Personality Disorder, and coming out – An update with Katie


Katie: If someone told me a year ago, not only are you gonna officially come out, you’re also gonna get a new job and you’re gonna move, oh.

And PS you have a partner. I would’ve been like, No.

Carling: Welcome to the, I did not Sign Up for this podcast, a weekly show dedicated to highlighting the incredible stories of everyday people. No topic is off limits. Join me as we explore the lives and experiences of guests through thought-provoking, unscripted conversations. I’m your host Carling, a Canadian queer identifying 30 something year old, providing a platform for the stories that need to be heard

hello Katie.

Katie: Hello.

Carling: we were just saying offline. It felt like we just talked a year ago, but it was 2020 since you and I last recorded,

Katie: An entire lifetime ago, if you will.

Carling: a whole lifetime. It’s so nice to see your face and hear your voice.

Katie: Yes, you too.

Carling: You were so kind to be a [00:01:00] guest when I was just starting out and I mean I still don’t always know what I’m doing, but I even knew less. But you were episode 39 and we met just a while before that doing CrossFit

Katie: Doing CrossFit. That’s right. Oh my God.

Carling: So funny.

Katie: Yes. I know. That was so unique when you went, Kathy’s your mom. I follow her on TikTok and that’s how that connection even happened.

Carling: I was like, this is wild.

Katie: Yeah.

Carling: So the first episode 39 that we did, we talked about your relationship with your mom and creating memories because she was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer’s and she was living in BC at her parents’ house with her.

Katie: Yes. One of her sisters is also in BC and also lives with her at the well parent house now, I guess. Um, yeah. Their father, my grandfather you may have seen on the TikTok, but [00:02:00] recently passed away.

Carling: no, I didn’t see that.

Katie: Yeah. The, my grandfather, you could probably tell from the tos he’s, he was in an exorbitant amount of pain for a very long time and in his late eighties he passed away. January 29th, I believe it was.

Carling: wow. I’m so sorry.

Katie: It’s tough, but I can. make it sound logical. It wasn’t it didn’t come outta nowhere. It wasn’t abrupt. It wasn’t because of an accident. He got to pass the way he wanted to,

Carling: Oh.

Katie: Given the circumstances. But mom, tells me that he’s died every day.

Carling: Oh, cuz she can’t remember.

Katie: she doesn’t remember that I.

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: and she is aware that he has, I don’t think it’s that every day she’s having to go through, oh, her dad died, I hope. But she doesn’t remember that certain people know. I think unless you’re visually in front of her on a day-to-day, she’ll forget. Even if you are visually [00:03:00] in front of her day to day, she forgets.

Carling: And I think that’s a side of Alzheimer’s that we don’t think about is that those things, when there’s a loss, sometimes you are the person that has to tell them every day, because I couldn’t imagine finding out for the first time every.

Katie: right.

Carling: That my dad died.

Katie: it’s, ugh, just horrible. So since we last spoke, lots of changes in her life have occurred

. In line with Alzheimer’s she’s now in a full-time facility called Trillium or Acacia, she’s there Monday to Friday.

And goes back to her mom’s place now in that she was staying with before with her sister, typically on weekends. But it’s become, it’s starting to become very difficult for her to do that transition. Even if I were to live in one place during the week and somewhere else during the weekend, I know for me that would not feel great.

I can only imagine it’s structured but not, so we’re now starting to see that’s not really working [00:04:00] as well long term anymore. Like it’s just not what’s in her best interest anymore,

Carling: and was it her decision to go into, or was she part of the decision to go into a long-term care facility?

Katie: Yes and no. There were some days, most days she loves Trium. She talks about it. She recently got a bigger room. That was a big to-do. She has quite a few friends there and enjoys the staff, but she didn’t want to not be at home. But her needs at home became more than what her current caregivers could provide,

Carling: Right.

Katie: . then as her Alzheimer’s began to get worse she’s had some aggressive moments or just moments. , she’s not the mom or the person that I remember that I know she is to be You know, Sometimes she’ll call you a bitch 10 times in a conversation, , and it’s, it’s not even that she’s trying to really be malicious.

She just thinks [00:05:00] it’s funny.

But it’s not for the majority of the rest of the world, . Or if she’s out, she’ll go and sit at someone’s table, like at a restaurant and just sit down and start talking to them for which, again, for the majority of the world, that’s like, what are you doing stranger? I don’t know.

And especially in Covid times, like absolutely not. But she just wants to talk to someone different, which I get it. I would want to too. So there’s just the social norms or understanding what’s acceptable socially or what’s even tolerated. And she can no longer take care of herself. Hasn’t been able to take care of herself independently for a while.

But now we’ve gone into the helping with, like basic necessities as far as like showering, going to the bathroom, things like that. She requires assistance in 24 7.

Carling: Oh, that’s so hard. And how old is she now?

61 6[00:06:00]

Katie: We have the same birthday. So she

Carling: But still like

Katie: when I was of zero.

Carling: zero.

Katie: and now I’m 40 62.

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: That’s horrible. I don’t.

I think 62, so still very young.

Carling: so young.

Katie: Very young. Very

Carling: And was she doing any treatment? I can’t remember if I know that there’s no cure, but is there treatment or therapies that she’s doing?

Katie: there are, but it, it comes down to what works for the individual. Alzheimer’s are so tough. One day she loves art, the next day she hates it. One day she wants to go on walks the next day she’s, just irritated. The outside world even exists. so as far as something consistent?

No. The one thing that she has consistently always loved is music. one of the friends of Jean, her sister her name is Barb, and they take her to a pub that has jazz music

Carling: Oh, nice.

Katie: so she gets to [00:07:00] experience things like that. So music, yes. But as far as, any kind of therapy that she could benefit from, even short term or long term, not that we’ve come.

Carling: Wow. It’s nice to get an update and to hear how she’s doing,

Katie: Overall she’s happy. She is safe. So that will have to do.

I think there’s been much more negative impacts.

I don’t even wanna call them negative, much more significant impacts on those who are her caregivers or those who are legally responsible for her or to make decisions. That has it would impact anyone of course, but those. , impacts are really starting to be felt, I think especially with the death of their father, my grandmother’s husband.

So it’s, like caregiver exhaustion and just can, could everyone get on the same page to decide what’s in her best interest? , no . There are some very strong other opinions,

But it’s, everyone’s trying [00:08:00] to do their best. What everyone’s best is probably different, but it’s everyone’s working with the information that they have and everyone is trying to do what’s best. I think the only people that are consistently doing what’s best in my mom’s best interest would be the facility because they don’t have. Type of relationship or connection. And they’re trained and that’s what they do. They’re the ones that know what’s best. So I’m trying to just stay in line with them,

Carling: And one of the other things that we talked about is we have a whole thread about things we could talk about on this podcast but one of them was your being diagnosed with B P D and is that borderline personality

Katie: Correct. Most often confused with bipolar , but no B P D is borderline personality disorder.

Carling: So I would love if you’re comfortable to hear that journey

Katie: and a journey. It has been uh,

Carling: because yeah, it’s not something I’m familiar. We’ve interviewed people with bipolar and I know that it’s [00:09:00] different. So yeah, I am interested to hear about that experience for

Katie: Yeah, no I’m happy to talk about it. Cuz borderline for those who aren’t familiar with it and to be fair, if you Google it, it sounds. awful

Carling: Oh

Katie: well, and it is awful, but it can sound very scary. There’s quite the stereotype of people with borderline are, abusive, erratic, violent, and you know what, some of some are.

But it depends. But some humans who aren’t, don’t have it, are . So I don’t know that’s specific to B p D, but for myself the first time I was diagnosed and immediately ignored it, , I was, I think 26 I’d been struggling with mental health issues, but my childhood, the majority of myself growing up, lemme make it very clear, this had nothing to do with my mom had just had almost everything to do with her unfortunate choice of husband at the time.

So I [00:10:00] had a pretty. Horrible childhood. And if you do anything, any research when it comes to b p d, those with B p D have some sort of traumatic childhood or some sort of significant trauma, which that happened for me quite a bit. And when you live in a chaotic, abusive environment or that’s where you’re raised, lack of sense of self, lack of.

Self-confidence or self-image or feeling safe, those are almost always gone. And those are the, pretty huge precursors to B p D. So I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist with my doctor because, I was like, yes, you have depression. Tried the meds, nothing was helping. So then the the medication that you would get for B P D is typical.

stronger than your like more common typical antidepressant. So we moved into that category of meds and it just is often a higher dose or just a whole different category altogether. So I was first diagnosed when I was 25, 26. [00:11:00] Took me quite some time to accept that.

Cause right when I was diagnosed is when I first looked it up and I looked it up and was like, like deeply offended,

Carling: Yeah, but that is not me.

Katie: me. And then the more I actually thought about it openly and honestly, I was like, oh, that is me .

Carling: Oh, no,

Katie: no. Cuz with borderline. depending where you’re researching, there’s typically seven characteristics.

Some people will say it’s nine, but you need to either have seven of the nine, five of the seven in order to be, classified as fitting the borderline diagnosis. And at the first time when I looked, it was like, oh, nice, all of them

Carling: The one time you don’t want a hundred percent in

Katie: Yeah, I was like, great. School was so hard and now I get a hundred percent of course. But the good news with that diagnosis is that it allowed my doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist to really look into proper medication. and I think for a borderline, there’s so many different kinds of [00:12:00] therapies.

You can do the, D B T C B T group therapy, one-on-one therapy. There’s so much, and what works for one will definitely not work for another. What worked best for me was a collaborative approach, although for me I need my meds and if I. Forget to take them one day, which rarely happens, but actually happened the other night.

I feel the effects of it immediately. It’s almost immediate withdrawal and mentally I feel horrible. So it opened the door for me to actually get proper medication and actually when I was younger, begrudgingly get into therapy.

But that was the absolute game changer. So it’s not to say that, life as of right now is great and lovely and my day-to-day is good. I’m managing it and it’s taken about a decade for me to really fine. My day to day and actually to feel okay. But it’s, the amount of relationships or friendships that were [00:13:00] destroyed along the way, or even whether with others or myself, it’s significant.

So some of the stuff Yeah, I get it. Like when you Google it Sure. Like the extreme. Extreme highs and lows. The going from unhappy one minute to a complete split. and then like completely different, like I can with ease go from, I’m feeling really good today to maybe I’ll go off that cliff and it’s that fast so though on the outside, most people, unless you know me very well, would never know. That’s cuz I medicated then in therapy, inside, I feel pretty it’s a battle. It’s a constant battle.

And I’m stubborn and I don’t like to talk about my feelings, which makes it even harder. Because then I’m, of course, internalizing everything as well. So it’s been very long, long journey and. . Even though the only reason I got on TikTok was cuz of my mom. But now that I’m on TikTok, you see more stuff about b p d.

Gotta love before E page . You can see what, you [00:14:00] can see. What I like . like all lesbians in B p D and it’s like perfect

But I’ve actually met like one of my now closest friends who has B P d. I met her on TikTok. She lives in Australia. to have someone like I, I’m very lucky. I have very supportive friends, but unless you have it, you just cannot understand it or support that person in the way that they need.

It’s just, it’s impossible. You cannot, it’s ta telling someone who’s gone through chemo to be like, I get it when you’ve never had chemo. It’s you just can’t,

Carling: Yeah.

How would you describe B P D if somebody’s like, oh, I’ve never heard of that. What is it?

Katie: Huh, B P d, the worst, I don’t know. The most mentally painful thing you could probably go through. And so for somebody who doesn’t have it, the anguish that you felt at your worst moment or the whatever the worst moment of your life was It’s every single day, and it can look like a lot of different things for a [00:15:00] lot of different people.

But mental anguish and internal screaming while having to mask and therefore smile on the outside cuz you can’t scream every day, all day. Not acceptable, the biggest thing for me is a lack of self-image and not really knowing who you are.

Like when we’re all younger, trying to figure out who we are. But having to do that, and for me, like now my late thirties and having to do it my entire life and my sense of self changing. Many times over the years. And then also dealing with a colorful life, I suppose I’ll call it.

Carling: Wow.

Katie: it seems to be a lot of people who don’t have b p d. I Obviously I’m talking about based on what I’ve seen online, but when Health Canada has approved medically assisted suicide for people with B P d we’re in that category.

And a lot of people who don’t have B P D are very, offended , why would, there need to have more support and things like that, and, . Yeah, I agree. But what you need to ke keep in mind is that’s how bad it is that if you don’t have the resources or meds or whatever it is that you [00:16:00] need, that, that’s how bad it is that they’re approving medically assisted suicide for it.

Cuz there’s no cure for b p D. There’s treatment and not all treatment works for people. Sometimes meds don’t work for one. Sometimes therapy doesn’t work. It depends on what your trauma is and why you’ve got it.

Carling: And that’s what’s so interesting is that it’s diagnosed as a result of

Katie: Yeah.

Carling: It’s not like a it’s like something happened that changed your brain.

Katie: brain chemistry. Yeah.

It happens from, probably more than one event, but depends what the event is and usually, those events definitely will likely be similar. And then create that. You put yourself in other kinds of situations that dependent to said advance and then poof. There you go.

It’s interesting. I know a lot of people are like, how did you get it? And I’m like, wow, I don’t know that we have time for that today.

Carling: Yeah. .

Katie: could give you my best guess, but ultimately I’m not even sure cuz it’s all a lot of, like childhood or very young [00:17:00] stuff. And I probably remember four things from my childhood collectively as a whole.

The rest is, I don’t remember at all. I mean, One positive part of my brain, it shut it down. So honestly, I don’t know. All I know is it was really bad. And so now I have

B P D.

Carling: So you talked about having trouble with self-identity. does, so you’ve also talked about coming out as a

Katie: I know . Thank you.

Carling: to the club

Katie: I know

Carling: I should like send out like welcome

Katie: it would be so nice. I like totally

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: except I was the only one that was like, okay, I gotta tell everyone. Everyone I told was like, yeah and I was like, oh, we all knew but me. Cool. Okay,


Carling: So you, so the b p d diagnosis came first and you were living your life

with this. I do find the correlation interesting of if you have trouble with self-identity, coming out as anything but straight is a big process for a lot of people. [00:18:00] So what was that

Katie: You know, It was so interesting and I. When I was younger, I always thought, like in my teenage years, like my first kiss was with a girl, but it was like, oh, she was my friend. Oh my God, that was it. That’s cute. But it never occurred to me like what it meant. I wasn’t able to process what it meant.

And so I, you dated guys was always like consistently pretty unhappy with them. But this tied into my also past trauma. So I thought that this was normal. You’re not actually supposed to like, , they’re just there. And then, so I was always, ugh, dating guys and being like really unhappy . I think about it now and I’m like, hello?

Carling: yeah. , yes. Same

Katie: ew, . always very unhappy in the sense that there was just always something missing and I could never identify what it was. I never knew what it was. It wasn’t clear. It wasn’t. , oh, if they did this would be better. And I always turned into like [00:19:00] mom mode with them, like I was the caregiver cause I was very good at that, but it was never like a partner.

Relationship, that part just, it wasn’t there, but I didn’t know that it wasn’t there. I was just like, no one’s happy. Look at all these like movies, TV shows about marriage. Or like men and women dating, the men are just like, oh my, like my old bull and chain and the women are just like, I hate bu you know, would see women, I would be like, oh, it’s very good. Lucky I could appreciate, the beauty. And then in my twenties it was, dabbled sexually, but any of the boyfriends at the time were just like, oh, it’s so hot. And, and that was it.

So I was like, okay, it’s hot. Cool. It had, it clicked. It was like, Hey, you like this? It’s hot, but it’s

hot for you. .Yeah.

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: And then after my last, like my longest term relationship when that ended, I guess it was a decade ago, I got very lucky. I got finally introduced into Gay World.

I didn’t know it, I didn’t [00:20:00] know about it, but I ended up having this most amazing roommate who he’s gay and so he brought me to. the gay bars. And then I started meeting all these, whether on the spec queer, I’ll call them queer. I don’t like to just say gay, but like I entered Queer World where I was in queer bars around queer people and all different shapes, sizes, all different kinds of identities.

And I remember I was like and I was like, oh, I belong. and it like it finally clicked where I was like, oh, the, everyone’s like so happy and loving and everyone seems to actually care about each other. I have these real friends and they’re like, protective and it was just like everything just finally clicked in and I was like, , I’m part of this community.

Okay, cool. so I finally just got to meet more people, speak to more people, hear about their journeys and how, and then I was like, okay, so maybe like pansexual then. [00:21:00] Cause I was always like, I just love humans. I’m not really specific to a gender or to someone who identifies as a certain gender. I was like, if you’re male, great.

If you’re trans, great. If you’re non-binary, great. If. , maybe not straight, but . If you But I just it didn’t matter. And then I started dating women. I was like, matters. Cool. I still very

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: Like all shapes and sizes and gender identities. But it’s definitely women.

And then it finally just felt right, but it took me till I. 38, 39. No, 39. I’ll be 40 in April. It took me that long for it to finally click, and unfortunately, I think I felt so unsure because of my B P D because I just didn’t, I. You know, I never felt safe or at home, but it’s now like later occurred to me as talking with therapists.

That wasn’t really the b p d. I’ve been properly medicated and in treatment since I was about 27, 28. [00:22:00] It’s taken me a long time to finesse it, but part of it was also was like, huh, and lesbian. So I just didn’t, I didn’t know that

Carling: Yeah,

Katie: And then because of my trauma, all the like really weird relationships I had with men and always being, they all did a very good job and myself included, as being like you’re just unhappy because you’re unhappy. Hadn’t occurred to me though. I was like, it. Yes, but also, there’s this other part of it, and so then, yeah, it finally click and so I remember speaking with my friend, my very good friend Brian. I was just like, I just I wholeheartedly really dislike straight now Like it, it’s like passionate about it.

I just don’t. , I see them and I’m like, Ugh. I have met bad experiences with them, but even like sexually on a side, I’m just like, why? No, just no. And it’s like an immediate and Brian’s like, you know this, your dislike for them has grown quite a bit, . And I was like, I know if you’re a gay man, love you almost [00:23:00] immediately.

Love you. Trans men love you immediately, doesn’t matter. And then he is like, why don’t you try dating women? And I was like well, I’d I’d only. participated in physical activities with women. I’d never dated them. And he is like, why don’t you try dating them? So I went, okay, change my Facebook dating settings , which I almost like, felt like I internally changed, and I was like, silly goose, it’s this.

And then I changed it on Facebook and started talking and dating with women and it’s yeah, that was it. So there’s just so many different levels that everything went hand in hand. You wish I’d known sooner, but Better late than never.

Carling: Yeah, I just think if there was just better representation of real relationships in all their, shapes and sizes you might have been able to see yourself in what was

Katie: yeah, maybe. And I’m like blown away at those who did accomplish that, in the same schools as me, or same environments of me. Like , how did you figure it out and how are you so brave to just, [00:24:00] really be yourself as you were, like even back then. I’m not saying it’s easier now, but there’s more.

outspoken, people around. I remember being in high school and there was like one gay guy for sure. There was more. The high school is 2000 people. There’s no way. There was one, There was one out one

and then what about those who weren’t out or those who were, just somewhere on the spectrum, had no idea what the spectrum even was.

Carling: Yeah. There was no words for it. There was no discussion about it. There was no,

Katie: understanding of lesbians when I was younger is that like straight guys found it hot, so it’s like, oh, you make

out with your friends when you’re drunk. And I was like I do for different reasons than perhaps what other people do, but I didn’t know. It hadn’t occurred to me

Carling: yeah. I’ve said it a thousand times, but like growing up, my first exposure to lesbians was

Katie: Oh, Jerry Springer. Yeah.

Carling: It was like m my wife is dating another wi it was just awful. It was the [00:25:00] per the the way they were portrayed and characterized was not how I felt. I didn’t see myself.

We didn’t have the, Jo Jo Siwas was

Katie: the new L word.

Carling: the new L word and yeah. We didn’t have those characters and celebrities that were, showing

Katie: Yeah.

Carling: What was it like coming out as a later in life lesbian, like professionally, personally?

Katie: personally, again, I have one very good friend who’s my life lifelong best friend who is straight. Everyone else is queer were

all very understanding and I think that’s where they thought they were like, yeah. like girl we knew and also who cares?

Like whatever , they’re like, great, you do you. Even my grandparents were just like, as long as you’re happy, and no one batted an eye. , it was very, I was just like, Hey, so what’s this? And people went, yeah. And I went, oh, [00:26:00] very. That was not an exciting conversation for anyone , but I guess that’s great.

Is the majority of the people who were close in my life already knew. And the ones who didn’t, I may as well have told them I had orange juice for breakfast and they were like, yeah, okay, cool. So that part I was very. lucky. it just felt if you’ve not been home for years and then you finally just open the door and you’re like, I’m home. And so that was it. I know there’s so many other stories that are not as light and quick as mine. I think I’m probably on the side where it’s like very fewer. Very few. , professionally, even at the law firm I worked at in Calgary there was one person there who was not on the spectrum. So it was just, again, a very queer environment where I work now. It was very different and it was the, one of the first few times where I felt, unsure the law firm I work at now.

The majority of the people there are Lebanese and practicing Muslim. And I just, I didn’t know enough. I had [00:27:00] only known what I heard, so I thought in the interview I was, I’m moving here for my partner. please know what that means.

Not my girlfriend, not my husband, not my boyfriend partner. Please know what that means. And there was no like, no one bad, an eyelash. But the more I looked into parts of, Muslim culture or the other culture, I was like, I don’t know , if this is okay. . I don’t know that they know, cuz I don’t know how much experience they. in that world at all, and I’m gonna suspect it’s probably not much. So I’m like they only know what they’ve been told and what they’ve been told, like who’s told them that depends who they are. So I was very nervous and I was, again, very luckily met with nothing but love and it just it didn’t matter.

They’ve asked me questions, I’ve asked them. . My boss recently asked, do you ever feel uncomfortable in public? And I was like, yeah, sometimes in some stores, depending where we are. Yes. And [00:28:00] he’s like, sometimes I feel uncomfortable in public too, because he’s Lebanese, right?

So like he has a very dis,

specific look to him and a very specific, often misunderstanding about him. He dresses well, has a bmw, and I’m like, you’re not helping yourself really much. And he was like, no, but I, he is but I really love my car. And I was like, I know you do. But like he’s, he is taken the time to ask.

And I said, do you ever feel uncomfortable or have you ever been somewhere and been like, stared at? I’m like, yes. And I’m not very outwardly presenting,

not as much as others. And so I don’t find it that obvious.

But if I’m out with a partner, then obviously I haven’t had to experience anything really negative. I don’t know how well I would take that.

Carling: I do feel that even, I think I’m less straight passing now than I once was, but there’s like this there’s words that you use to out yourself, but in a dipping the toe kind of cautious way, like I will specifically say my partner [00:29:00] or drop a her, she pronoun when speaking of my partner, and you just you guard yourself a little bit to catch reactions, and hope that they pick up what you’re putting down and that it’s

Katie: Yeah. So when I was like, oh, moving here for my partner, and then they’re like, okay. And so what other work did you do at the firm? And I was like, oh, we don’t care, or we don’t know. , let’s go for

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: And it ended up being that, so I’m lucky that way, but it’s, yeah. It’s been a wild ride.

But I must say with my experience with B p D made it. I think an easier ride. It could have been more difficult, but I had already been accustomed to so much difficult that it just lessened the impact , I have. more than a decade experience, an arsenal of tools that I can get myself through, like excruciating mental trauma or like a mental issue and then like I know how to cope with the hard stuff, so I at least have that.

Carling: that’s amazing.

Katie: Yeah, [00:30:00] lots went on in two years.

Carling: I feel like I know. I was gonna say it feels like we just talked recently, but a lot’s been

Katie: a lot. I don’t even know what more to say, honestly. If someone told me a year ago, Hey, not only are you gonna officially come out, you’re also gonna get a new job and you’re gonna move, oh. And PS you have a partner. I would’ve been like, No. There’s nothing you can do to make me believe that. Absolutely not. Cause again, like with B P D relationships are so hard so I’d settled in with the idea of I’m not going to like the marriage thing. That’s not gonna be for me cuz I don’t know if I’m capable or I’m certain I won’t find someone who is capable of.

Dealing with me in that way, unless they also have B p D. And then if we both have B p D and we’re both like in a low moment Ooh, I don’t know, . But I was completely bamboozled by this person and just caught me outta nowhere. And then, so yeah, I moved and here we’re .

Carling: That’s [00:31:00] amazing. I just love your openness and willingness to share

Katie: We’ll just go down our list.

Carling: It’s so nice.

Katie: I think we covered off like three

Carling: Yeah.

Katie: though,

Well, thank you. It’s always lovely seeing you and speaking to you.

Carling: Yeah. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great

day and we’ll have to talk really soon.

Katie: we will. we will.

Carling: Okay. Bye.

thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I hope you found our conversation informative and entertaining. If you enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to follow me on social media. Share this podcast with your friends and leave a review@ratethispodcast.com slash I did not sign up for this.

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I hope you all have a fantastic week ahead and we’ll talk soon.

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